Time for a new computer

SmoothNuts · Post by **SmoothNuts** » 25 Nov 2006 13:16

You could use the mouse you have at the mo till it gets in.

Not a great deal of difference I should imagine, i'd recommend going for 2 gig over clock rate.

Yea i'd get 2 disks and place them into a mirrored array for resiliancy and redundancy.

I very much doubt you will need any extra cables. Your cooler will come with thermal paste, and according to various review sites your motherboard with necessary cables. Not too sure on screws though, but i've got bags-full of em if you come up short.

Trig · Post by **Trig** » 25 Nov 2006 18:36

Hat, if your going to overclock then the faster the ram the better, all of the 1066Mhz FSB chips will use PC2-4200(533) RAM which is fine, the only reason I went faster is incase I decide to tweak a bit, the RAM I went for is 667 stuff so I have a bit of headroom, going for 800 is waaay over what your going to need.

Most cases and boards come with the required bits and bobs these days as for paste I've got some and the stock heatsink comes with some preapplied stuff and Zalmans usually come with a sachet fo the stuff anyways so your prolly covered.

Post by **MA_Hat** » 27 Nov 2006 01:24

ok thanks...

Just waiting for cash to come back from the 3 day void when transferring from one account to another (bastards), then we're good to go..

MA_Thorn · Post by **MA_Thorn** » 27 Nov 2006 09:53

Don't bother mirroring.. it just doubles the space needed for the same amount of data.. i.e. 5GB data becomes 10GB space needed.

If you are going to use RAID, make it RAID 0 (Striping). Though personally I don't bother with any RAID array's, they add headache for minimal gain.

SmoothNuts · Post by **SmoothNuts** » 27 Nov 2006 10:03

I disagree. RAID 0 isn't actually RAID at all. RAID 1 is ideal for an increase in read and a 'virtual' increase in seek time, considering how inexpensive storage media is, as well as providing an easy to maintain backup system.

MA_Clingy · Post by **MA_Clingy** » 27 Nov 2006 10:05

ditto Thorn

RAID=PAIN

MA_Thorn · Post by **MA_Thorn** » 27 Nov 2006 11:34

SmoothNuts wrote:I disagree. RAID 0 isn't actually RAID at all. RAID 1 is ideal for an increase in read and a 'virtual' increase in seek time, considering how inexpensive storage media is, as well as providing an easy to maintain backup system.

RAID 0 is RAID.. by it's very definition. It was the first design of RAID, thus it has "RAID 0" as it's designation.. RAID 1+ were designed after 0. RAID 0 provides the biggest performance 'boost' over all other forms of RAID, simply because you have multiple heads performing the data seeking, compared to the other forms of RAID that do not. RAID 1+ creates duplicate data, thus you will not see any performance increase, but you will have the security that if one disk fails, you can immediately replace it. RAID 0, you lose it all when one disk goes. RAID 2+ are variants, with improvements of RAID 1, but can be more expensive in terms of resources/number of disks required, but you do not lose data if one disk fails.

SmoothNuts · Post by **SmoothNuts** » 27 Nov 2006 11:55

Actually RAID 0 was a late entry as a type of disk array, but that is all it is, it's not actually RAID (it has no redundancy, there is no independancy or interdependancy). Further you do get a performance increase with RAID 1, with both disks containg a copy of data, data read-aheads can be read further, although the best performance is gained when the disks are on separate controllers. The performance of RAID 0 on a cheap RAID controller that is present on almost every motherboard chipset is debateable as well. Infact in many instances striping results in poorer performance, whereas if you use RAID 1 you are gauranteed at least a performance increase (however slight it may be).

MA_Thorn · Post by **MA_Thorn** » 27 Nov 2006 12:20

Further reading shows that RAID 0 is only considered "Not RAID" because it doesn't have fault tolerance, and all disks are active/live (not redundant.) Which is what you get without mirroring.

It's dependant on the size of data being read, and stripe allocation, to see performance gains from RAID 0.

I stand corrected on the creation of RAID 0, though

Trig · Post by **Trig** » 27 Nov 2006 17:14

I had RAID on my main machine for a while, didnt really make any significant difference so I went back to a single disk setup

MA_Zak33 · Post by **MA_Zak33** » 27 Nov 2006 20:37

I'd not bother with RAID tbh.

Install XP on 1 drive with all your games, and use a second drive as a data drive.

The XP/games drive then stays pretty unfragmented, and the data drive holds films, music, photo's etc, downloads, patches etc etc. It's easier to defrag, as is the XP/games disk.

And just to set the cat right among the pigeon's....

I'd have a 160 Seagate Baracuda instead of 200gb Samsungs.

There is something special about Seagates Barracuda 7200.9 range. If you choose a 160gb model, it only has ONE PLATTER inside it.

This means two things: less heat and denser data. Denser data means it's capable of spooling data out faster.

The Samsungs use 100gb platters, which means it has two inside.

If you need more space than 160bg, get two. Larger Baracuda's dont all have 160 gb platters, most use 125 or 133, though one uses a 188 platter.

Largest Baracuda do use 16mb cache, which is why the SATA 300 limit is occasionally used, thought very very rarely, and only for split seconds.

Have I used them both? Yes.
Have I stuck with Seagate? Yes
Why? 5 year warranty, and very good customer support, when I needed a firmware flash (because nVidia failed to get Native Command Queing sorted in it's mobo)

http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductI ... tID=434386

It also happens to claim a faster seek time, though factory tech spec is notoriously misguiding.

SmoothNuts · Post by **SmoothNuts** » 27 Nov 2006 21:07

Look, i'm not talking speed, i'm talking it's real purpose, hence the nomenclature "REDUNDANT array of INDEPENDENT disks".

MA_Zak33 · Post by **MA_Zak33** » 27 Nov 2006 22:05

RAID has also been knows as Redundant Array of Inexpensive Disks. In fact, I believe, it may have been the original description, but I may (as normal) br wrong.

It is, however, equally true, just for the record.

However, none of this helps Hat, and I'm a lover of being the last to say something on a subject....

RAID on a regular mobo, where the CPU is the power house behind it....is not faster OR better for data security in real terms.

Not when you can use a second hard drive to back up your files

MA_Zak33 · Post by **MA_Zak33** » 27 Nov 2006 22:07

http://www.staff.uni-mainz.de/neuffer/s ... _raid.html

http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/raid

http://www.cuddletech.com/veritas/raidtheory/x26.html

http://www.technick.net/public/code/cp_ ... guide_raid

http://www.acronymdb.com/acronym/RAID

http://www.stands4.com/RAID

i thought I was right....inexpensive

SmoothNuts · Post by **SmoothNuts** » 27 Nov 2006 22:32

The keyword is redundant.

MA_Thorn · Post by **MA_Thorn** » 27 Nov 2006 23:27

And the keywords you are missing out on, Nuts, is "WASTE OF MONEY AND DISKSPACE"

Why have two 160GB's Disks for only 160GB of actual space, on a home pc, where data security doesn't mean a lot, when you can have 320GB of actual space?

MA_Zak33 · Post by **MA_Zak33** » 27 Nov 2006 23:51

SmoothNuts wrote:The keyword is redundant.

ya right...it is redundant

Trig · Post by **Trig** » 27 Nov 2006 23:57

I tried RAID cos I had a spare 250Gb drive and I have enough disk space to not worry about missing 250gb, it didnt make any real difference, what I might do tho is Zak suggestiobn of having a seperate drive for data instead of my current OS/Apps on 1 partition, then games/data on the other but on the same drive, then a Temp drive with my pagefile and temps folders on

SmoothNuts · Post by **SmoothNuts** » 28 Nov 2006 00:11

Why have two 160GB's Disks for only 160GB of actual space, on a home pc, where data security doesn't mean a lot, when you can have 320GB of actual space?

Well as you may know hat does a lot of work on his PC, and a suitable backup solution such as RAID 1 is ideal for the home desktop PC, whilst other RAID's are more suitable for enterprise and mission critical solutions - in sofar as 2 hard disks of that size are inexpensive indeed, and Hat does not intend to use 200GB of space.

it....is not faster OR better for data security in real terms

A regular backup routine wont let you restore files that have been altered recently during an interval from your last backup and hard disk failure. RAID 1 allows you to restore those files. I'd of course recommend an alternative single disk backup source from which you can restore files which are lost as a result of other issues (accidental deletion, virus etc).

And the keywords you are missing out on, Nuts, is "WASTE OF MONEY AND DISKSPACE"

If you think it's a waste of money and disk space to have a suitbale backup on a system which may very well contain thousands of hours of work that's your opinion, and may you hold it until your disk goes tits up

Trig · Post by **Trig** » 28 Nov 2006 00:29

Wonder if I can get that LTO2 drive in my main machine, then you can scream about RAID until the cows tip

MA_Clingy · Post by **MA_Clingy** » 28 Nov 2006 10:20

My only experiences of RAID over 15 years are bad. Not once in that time had a RAID set-up "rescued" us. i.e I have had no hard disk failure on the devices that use RAID, probably because they are renewed every 3/4 years. What has happened on two occasions is a RAID controller failing and in the process totally screwing up all the data. From what I understand this is not unusual.

But, yes, we still use RAID 1 on all our servers. For my 2d I'd prefer some kind of regular "cold backup" for home/small offfice use. What RAID doesn't help with, is accidently altering or deleting data, which in my experience is the most common form of data corruption/loss.

Probably because of my experience I would do regular simple copies of the directory containing the critical data to a second HD or to another PC on your network. At home we have 3 PCs on the network so it is so much easier.

I know Nuts....I am a philistine

MA_Thorn · Post by **MA_Thorn** » 28 Nov 2006 10:42

Hat does web design, so uploading to some webspace is far more secure than using RAID at home.

We use all kinds of RAID here, depending on the size and requirements. (Only exception is RAID 0, but we do use 0+1)

It's a PITA and as Clingy says, if something does go wrong with it, it royally goes wrong. Just about the only thing RAID is good for is hard disk failures. Software faults, or controller faults and it makes a bad problem worse.

Not to mention the extra head ache it can add to OS installation.

MA_Zak33 · Post by **MA_Zak33** » 28 Nov 2006 11:07

(so far off topic that it's only relevent to the rather good RAID discussion now going on)

I did find RAID 0 was good for one thing though: FRAPS recording of ingame footage.

RAID 0 (striped) was awesome at that, as it should be. And in synthetic benchmarks it acted faster. But in real world loading it was slower especially in Windows Boot up speeds, as it went through extra BIOS screens before booting.

Yes Trig.....no point partitioning really. Just use spare HDD as Data drive.

Trig · Post by **Trig** » 28 Nov 2006 14:24

Might have to do that then, currently swapping out my 2 IDE 300's for some SATA drives as new board only has 1 IDE channel on it which my 2x optical drives are on.
Luckily I have sheetloads of SATA on this board.

Back onto the RAID thing tho, we had an IBM drive die, IBM spent an hour on the phone going thru things, then the next day an engineer came out with a new drive, stick it in and off we went, was a bit slow while it was mirroring but as soon as it was done things were back upto level.

Post by **MA_Hat** » 30 Nov 2006 07:56

Right.. hoof yer raid discussion over to a separate topic (move the posts if you want), 'cos I like to read all that stuff.. and one day I'll understand enough to join in.

In the meantime.. allow me to update you on the current list and thank you all for your comments, thoughts and suggestions. Even though I may not have acted on every one, they have all been invaluable in helping me reach an informed decision.

SFF has gone by the wayside 'cos mini mobo not in stock and after further thought, felt that it was time for a change from the Shuttle... yet I'm still struggling to keep within that 1k budget and have a dogsbolls PC, with the existing shuttle as a useful backup.

So here it is

Case £72.84 Inc VAT
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductI ... tID=318079
SilverStone TJ04B (BLACK) Aluminum Front/SECC Body Tower Case (w/o PSU)

PSU £64.63 Inc VAT
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductI ... tID=241236
480w Tagan TG480-U15 EasyCon - 2Force Silent Modular PSU

Keyboard £14.32 Inc VAT
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductI ... tID=140005
Logitech Ultra-X Media Black/Silver Keyboard OEM USB

Mouse £8.80 Inc VAT
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductI ... tID=417262
Microsoft IntelliMouse Optical, 800 dpi, PS2 USB 1.1, 5 Buttons, Black

CD/DVD Read/Write £20.36 Inc VAT
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductI ... tID=472130
NEC ND-7170A-0B Black x18 DVD±RW Dual Layer (with Ram Support ) DVD-Writer OEM UK

Mobo £81.40 Inc VAT
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductI ... tID=448643
Gigabyte GA 965P-S3 iP965, S775, PCI-E (x16), DDR2 533/667/800, SATA II, SATA RAID, ATX

CPU £145.32 Inc VAT
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductI ... tID=430632
Intel Core 2 Duo E6400, Socket 775, 2.13 GHz, 1066MHz FSB, Allendale Core, 2MB Cache, Retail

RAM £175.71 Inc VAT
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductI ... tID=291363
2Gb (2X1Gb) Corsair TwinX XMS2, DDR2 PC5400 (667), 240 Pin, Non-ECC Unbuffered, CAS 4-4-4-12

Hard Drive(s) 2 X £45.50 (£91) Inc VAT
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductI ... tID=260257
2 X 200 Gb Samsung SP2004C SpinPoint P120, SATA300, 7200 rpm, 8MB Cache, 8.9 ms, NCQ

Graphics Card £228.88 Inc VAT
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductI ... tID=488120
512MB XFX 7950GT XXX, PCI-E (x16), Mem 1600MHz, GPU 610MHz, 24 Pipes, Dual DVI/HDTV

Surge Protector £5.86 Inc VAT
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductI ... tID=162837
Belkin SurgeMaster 5 Socket Switched Surge Protector inc Phone/Fax/Modem Protection

OS £56.52 Inc VAT
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductI ... tID=498849
Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition SP2b OEM Single Pack FREE Ugrade Coupon to Windows Vista

Graphics Tablet £17.61 Inc VAT
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductI ... ctID=33043
Nisis Easypen G3 USB Graphics Tablet (6" Active Area) inc Cordless Mouse & Pen

Total cost inc vat and carriage £1,001.69

Hope I'm right on the Mobo... I needed it to be 80 - 90 quid based upon the other stuff... and I jsut couldnt work out the difference between them.. even the feature list looked exaclty the same for different boards at different prices.

Anyway... order being placed!

Post by **MA_Hat** » 30 Nov 2006 09:13

Order acknowledged 1 hour later

Still.... delivery date is for Monday

I don't suppose that you could sort something out Zak so that it is delivered to yours for the Saturday when we are all at yours? Would be SOOO much more useful.

Trig · Post by **Trig** » 30 Nov 2006 11:16

Ask the guys at scan over at hexus, if its your first order with them then they generally will only deliver to your registered address for whichever card you paid for it on.
Looks like a pretty good machine tho chap

Wheres the CPU tho?!

MA_Thorn · Post by **MA_Thorn** » 30 Nov 2006 13:11

btw, Hat, you SO should have gone for a WACOM tablet.

Trig · Post by **Trig** » 30 Nov 2006 13:15

Disagree, if he likes the tablet and wants a better one then a WACOM is the way to go, however if he finds he cant get on with it then a WACOm would be a waste of money, better to try a cheaper £15 job and go from there...
Same as this whole RAID thing, this machines going to be so much faster than his old machine RAID is just confusing an issue that doesnt need touching IMHO, its hardly as if hes a hardcore system user and needs the extra speed or data security that RAID offers him, a simple external backup device, Zip or something similar will do the job...

MA_Thorn · Post by **MA_Thorn** » 30 Nov 2006 13:34

scandalous lies!

/strokes wacom tablet

Mind you.. I did have a demo on an el cheapo before buying this £200 jobbie. The difference is massive however.

Trig · Post by **Trig** » 30 Nov 2006 17:02

Yeah, if you use it then thats not a problem, but depending on what the G's gonna use it for then spunking £200 on a tablet might not be a priority and a £15 job might do it....

Post by **MA_Hat** » 30 Nov 2006 17:25

Trig wrote:Wheres the CPU tho?!

AAGGH!

Wheew, you had me worried..... thought I'd left it off the order and all my sums were WAY out!

Luckily.. I had only left it off the list above... (edited now)

Graphics tablet is only a punt to see what its like to use one, it'll just stop me buying one at a computer fair or something ::D

MA_Zak33 · Post by **MA_Zak33** » 30 Nov 2006 20:21

Yes....you can

Post by **MA_Hat** » 30 Nov 2006 21:29

MA_Zak33 wrote:Yes....you can

You got mail x

MA_Dak · Post by **MA_Dak** » 30 Nov 2006 21:42

Sexy rig Hat S!

Trig · Post by **Trig** » 30 Nov 2006 22:28

I take it your gonna RAID it then seeing as u have 2 drives?

MA_Zak33 · Post by **MA_Zak33** » 30 Nov 2006 22:32

Trig....you need slappin' ;-)

Trig · Post by **Trig** » 30 Nov 2006 22:52

why what have I done now?

MA_Dak · Post by **MA_Dak** » 30 Nov 2006 23:07

Trig wrote: why what have I done now?

Post by **MA_Hat** » 30 Nov 2006 23:56

Trig wrote:I take it your gonna RAID it then seeing as u have 2 drives?

I'm gonna raid your cider stash when you aint lookin

Trig · Post by **Trig** » 01 Dec 2006 00:24

I was only gonna bring 4 or 8 cans as I dont really drink much anymore, can bring some more if you like, bought a 24 pack about months ago n still got a load left...

MA_Thorn · Post by **MA_Thorn** » 01 Dec 2006 10:33

Trig.. not drink.. quick, someone check his temp!

Post by **MA_Hat** » 01 Dec 2006 10:43

wahay!

Looks like it's gonna be delivered to Zak+Rias' place on sat am !

Cheers for sorting that Zak.. much appreciated

Trig · Post by **Trig** » 01 Dec 2006 10:55

I'll bring a screwdriver then eh

Not sure if the gigabyte boards come with lockable sata cables so will bring a few of them too as there much better than the standard ones, shame theres nothing the same for PSU ones as I'm always snapping the end off

Post by **MA_Hat** » 01 Dec 2006 10:58

lol.. and your iso collection

Trig · Post by **Trig** » 01 Dec 2006 12:12

Keep them on one of the drives in my machine chap

MA_Thorn · Post by **MA_Thorn** » 01 Dec 2006 14:40

Should that be ISO collection, or xxx.avi ?

Trig · Post by **Trig** » 01 Dec 2006 17:07

Take your pick.

MA_Thorn · Post by **MA_Thorn** » 01 Dec 2006 18:42

Post by **MA_Hat** » 02 Dec 2006 00:02

Here we go.. my expectations of Scan are fulfilled...

The order I placed was partly decided by their indicated stock levels...

Zak helped me out and put in a call, so we agreed to pay an extra tenner and have it deliverd to Z & R's tomorrow...

I get a text at 8.30 TONIGHT ffs... saying that order is delayed due to stock leves and they have sent me an email,.

Facts:

1. No e-mail received
2. No responses from the 2 messages I sent them re that monitor I ended up buying from somewhere else
3. No response for a message I sent them a couple of days ago querying my order for this lot.
4. This is the last thing I ever buy from them.. they got a week tops.. then it goes elsewhere.

THis is Hat fkd off.